Monday, September 05, 2005

Israel 2010

In Israel 2010, which scenario is most likely?

1) Israel gives Gaza and 95% of the West Bank to the Palestinians in exchange for their dropping the “right of return” for Palestinians who left in 1948 and their families. The Palestinians live prosperously in their secular democratic state with equal rights for all minorities.

2) Gaza becomes “Hamastan.” The terrorist group launches daily rockets attacks into Israel and the PA does nothing to prevent this. There is a thriving arms/drug trade between Egypt and Gaza. The Netanyahu government decides to reoccupy Gaza and rebuild Gush Katif.

3) Gaza is part of a Palestinian sate. The West Bank is annexed to Israel in its entirety where Israel continues to rule over 2.4 million Palestinians. America does not pressure Israel to make further territorial concessions until Palestinian terror attacks on Israel cease.


ifyouwillit said...

I don't like the fact I imagine scenario #2 to be most likely. Maybe I am just too much of a cynic.

subjewd said...

I'd have to say, that all 3 are unlikely. While I have no doubt that the palestinians will continue to try and murder as many jews as possible through terrorist attacks, I doubt that netanyahu will go and resettle gush katif. He is a hypocrite, and his 'bold' move to quit the goverment just before the disengagment was clearly motivated by his intrest in regaining power, by becoming a 'hero' in the settler movement. He didn't fool me, and I'm sure plenty of others aren't impressed. Until Israel and the Jewish people realise they need leadership based on authentic jewish values (Torah) and then actualize that leadership, there will be no peace.

tafka PP said...

I can unequivocally predict: None of the above. But nice try! I imagine the nearest scenario is a less cynical version of 1) where Israel doesn't control Palestinian right of return, airspace, markets etc. And while many of them try to live prosperously in their secular, democratic two=part state, they remain torn apart by corrupt leadership in-fighting between militant groups. Not unlike us in Israel, less of the militant groups but lots of unpleasant bickering between various communities just out for their own interests, and corrupt leadership all the way.

Maybe I should move.

ifyouwillit said...

I disagree with subjewd's comment about Bibi. I think he did the right thing bowing out when he did, staying in the goverment would have been wrong, and had he not been in the goverment until the 11th hour, his protests would have been worth even less.

Ittay said...

If there were a race between Sharon, Bibi and Peres, who would win? All have had troubled pasts with issues of corruption(Bibi/Sharon), sabra and shatila(Sharon) and being a perpetual loser(Peres).

I say, love the one your with.

ifyouwillit said...

People are always really hard on Peres - in his hay day he was a realy hard core zionist, I'm sure he still his, but he did the country alot of good.

It's a shame for his sake he didn't quite politics at his peak when we would be remembered as a hero rather than the guy always trying to cling to some sense of power.

Bibi, Sharon and Peres standing for election... it sounds like the openign line of a joke!

Oh, and if G-d was a woman, it could explain alot ;)

AussieEcho said...

Of all of your 3 scenarios I would pick number 4 - Moshiach will be here.

We have been praying for Moshiach for 1000's of years and he is certainly overdue. Even the prayer for Israel which is recited in many shuls throughout the world says that Israel is reishit smichat geulateinu - the beginning of our redemption. I think Moshiach is a much more likely option than any of the other 3 - and an infinitely more desireable one.

Ittay said...

Thank you AE. When moshiach comes, what will happen in Isreal? Will all the Palestinians leave?

subjewd said...

A non jew is allowed to live in the biblical land of israel under torah law, providing that he/she agrees to follow the 7 Noahide Laws (basicly just being a good person) - they then gain the status of 'Ger Toshav' (Converted Dweller).

Just as an interesting side point, During the times of the Jewish Rulership in Israel, non-jews (from Israel and around the world) often came to offer up sacrifices at the Holy Temple.

Ittay said...

So, if the Palestinians agreed to the 7 noachide laws, does that mean that would get their own state in Gaza and WB? Does the talmud state whether there is a concept of autonomy for other nations when mashiach comes.

subjewd said...

nice idea, but it just doesn't work. You see, the way the status of 'Ger Toshav' operates, is under rule of the Sanhedrin (Jewish court system) - there is no concept autonomy or palestianian state-hood.
The entire biblical land of Israel will become under Jewish rulership (including parts of syria iraq etc...).
According to the Rambam, at least for the first forty years after Moshiach comes, the only major difference in the world will be that jews will not be under 'foreign' rulership (which i would say includes a secular goverment built on a modern democractic platform).
The other options for non-jews living in Israel who do not wish to become a 'Ger Toshav' are:

1. Leave
2. Get Killed

These options are unlikely because when Moshiach comes, we belive that the entire world will realise what G-d wants (amoungst other things, Jewish Rulership in Israel) and will want to be a part of the Jewish peoples existance in Israel.

Ittay said...

The mashicah you are talking about is probably different from what Herzl intended when he said, “if you will it, it is not a dream.”

But then again, it was David Ben-Gurion who said, “one who does not believe in miracles, is not a realist."

Shabbat shalom chaverim

WesleyWes said...


As Mohammedans they are in order with the Noahite Laws anyhow. Correct?


adar.weidman said...

It's almost 2010, and I think the 2nd option was almost right - Hamastan, war... even Netanyahu is prime minister again.

Anonymous said...

I think its disgusting how the dominant views here on this blog relate to ownership of land based on jewish religious beliefs. It is clear that based on these beliefs israel has found justification in perpetrating attrocities against the palestinian people.

The justification for bombing Gaza in January 2009 for rockets being fired over - please see the statistics of how many palestinians dead compared to israelis?? Palestine is under a blockade by Israel - the palestinians are poor and struggling to survive - Does your Torah allow the death of innocent civilians?? God is peace therefore let us all pursue a palestinian state so that both peoples can live in peace.

Ittay said...

The torah demands that the "stranger" living among the Jewish community be granted equal access to a home and livelihood, and it insists on equality in civil law.

Furthermore, Rabbi Eric Yoffie, the leader of reform Judaism which is currently the largest Jewish stream in America has spoken in favour of a two state solution on numerous occasions.

see here: